Thoughts on Sueness

[Aldrannath]

This is me thinking aloud, as it were; I wonder whether it might turn into a guide, except that it all feels a bit negative. Still, that doesn't mean it's not potentially useful... This isn't an exhaustive taxonomy of course, just what springs to mind right now.

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Calling a character a "Mary-Sue" - or "Sue" for short - has become a generic insult for any character people find silly, to the point that using the term has become an invitation to an argument rather than constructive criticism. Still, there is a concept buried under all the baggage: a Sue is a character who is in some way designed to be a focal point in every story. This is a far more pressing danger in RP than in literature, film or TV; after all, the central character of a novel, movie or drama series is supposed to be the centre of attention. In RP, on the other hand, a good story is shaped in such a way that every character gets a moment in the limelight - and equally crucially, every character ends up being peripheral some of the time. Of course, peripheral doesn't mean silent! Standing back and reacting to what others are doing is an opportunity for comment, comedy or a counterpoint to the action, and can often be more fun than being at the centre of things. But it's only fun as long as players accept that their character belongs on the sidelines at least some of the time - and as long as players are capable of stepping up when the limelight comes their way.

Sues can crop up in RP quite innocently; the extremely common mistake of developing a character based on heroes from novels or films is a sure path to severe Sueness in RP. Peripheral characters are often a safer starting point, if you want to use these as a source. For example: Han Solo, Yoda, Lando, Miss Moneypenny, "M", Samwise Gamgee, Faramir and Denethor are all valid starting points for RP characters; Luke Skywalker, James Bond, Frodo and Aragorn are not - though Frodo comes close, because the character was intended to be inherently un-heroic.

There's a Sue in all of us. Sharing the limelight is not an exact science; it takes sensitivity, thoughtfulness and constant self-examination. So this taxonomy of Sueness is not intended to point the finger at anyone; on the contrary, I think every single player and character we RP with is capable of falling into one of these traps. The idea here is rather to draw people's attention to potential pitfalls, and hopefully make better roleplayers of all of us - myself included.

Super Sue
This is the original type; a character who is brilliant at everything. If she fails, it's because she was betrayed; if she's mistaken, it's because she was lied to. You have to love her, because she's just amazing! Classic example: the original James Bond. Avoid this trap by identifying and emphasising your character's flaws, weaknesses and blind spots - but be careful not to go to the other extreme and just have her occasionally do something completely stupid.

Sparky Sue
A variation on the basic Super Sue, Sparky Sue is very young but precociously brilliant, outshines those vastly more experienced than her by dint of sheer talent, and comes up with solutions to problems that her teachers couldn't grasp. The classic example is Wesley Crusher from Star Trek: TNG - but everyone who was a maths whizz at school has been this person. A point to remember: this only happens in the field of mathematics. Avoid this problem by keeping sensible limits on how far talent can really take her, by making sure that she only outshines or impresses a more experienced character with the other player's consent, and by emphasising the limitations caused by her naivete.

Suffering Sue
The other infamous type; Suffering Sue has endured every hardship the world can offer, especially the really lurid sort that sells trashy newspapers. You have to love her, because she's in Such Terrible Pain. Avoid this problem by strictly limiting how much personal suffering you include in your character's background, but also by cultivating your distaste for background-confessional RP. Save emotional outpourings for your character's post-traumatic reactions to roleplayed events.

Senior Sue
The boss, and therefore the focal point in every situation. No matter what's happening, and no matter what competences the situation calls for, Senior Sue is there, in charge, leading from the front. Classic example: Captain Kirk. This is the main danger I have to be careful of when playing Aldrannath. Avoiding this is easy in theory, hard work in practice: delegate, delegate, delegate. Especially, make sure that your character knows her limitations (also, that she has limitations) and is quick to hand over responsibility when someone else is more competent to take charge. Among Kaldorei, that awareness and skill is probably part of how she rose to a position of authority in the first place.

Stroppy Sue
Won't willingly take orders from anybody - even when they're expressed politely-but-firmly, even when the other character is clearly supposed to be in charge, and even when lives are at stake. Stroppy Sue is such a free spirit that she will refuse to do what she's asked unless it's phrased as a very polite and respectful request - not because she has a particular reason to object, but just because she doesn't want to be bossed around. This is particularly unlikely behaviour on the part of Sentinels, Priestesses, or anyone with a military background. Avoid this by always doing what senior characters ask, unless there is a genuinely compelling reason to refuse: for example, countermanding orders from a higher authority; orders to do something plainly evil or wrong; or immediate danger of death - and the last of these doesn't apply for military characters under orders from a superior.

Snarky Sue
Is rude to everybody - but really, everybody. She's not afraid of you, no! And to show how afraid she isn't, she'll insult you to your face. No matter who you are or what you've done. That's just how badass she is. Avoid this by expressing personal hostility in superficially civil terms rather than being openly insulting - especially with plainly senior characters. This is anyway a more Kaldorei-ish way to behave; obvious rudeness is considered vulgar and inelegant.

Sulky Sue
Walks off and sulks alone whenever things don't go the way she wants - or the way the player wants. Kaldorei would basically never do this - so don't. Whatever the OOC reason for your absence (dinner, children, etc), in-character solitude is for serious purposes such as meditation, or for privacy or secrecy; it's not a way of coping with a bad mood, IC or OOC.

Passive Pat
This is the opposite problem: a character who basically never emotes or speaks unless another character interacts with them directly. Some less-experienced RPers are nervous about seeming foolish; be assured that almost any emote is better than none at all, and you'll get far more interaction if you show other players that you're present and engaged in what's going on. If you honestly can't think of anything for your character to do or say in half an hour's RP, whether or not another character addresses them directly, this is a clear sign that something important is missing from your concept of the character.

[Kaylaneh]

I knew you had Celegil in mind when you wrote the Stroppy and Snarky Sue paragraphs, it was a hilarious read. Nice work

However, maybe it would be a good idea to elaborate 'why' being a Sue is such an annoying experience for others. I also thought of maybe adding a paragraph of Sue characters that do work well. Star Trek might have been a horribly Sue cesspit, I still watched most of the series and movies. So..there must have been something in Star Trek that made me 'like' the characters, even if they were a Sue.

[Aldrannath]

Glad you enjoyed it. Though I must say, I wasn't thinking very specifically of Celegil when I wrote those paragraphs; I can think of half a dozen other characters who I've seen fall into those traps.

I think the idea driving my thoughts is that all of these traps are inherently problematic for RP. What you or I would call Sueness in RP might work very well in a book or a film - and that doesn't make it valid or acceptable in RP. I can think of dozens of awesome, brilliantly-written fictional characters who I wouldn't touch with a bargepole in RP: Kvothe from Name of the Wind; Daenerys from A Game of Thrones; Aragorn from The Lord of the Rings; Miles Vorkosigan from Bujold's glorious Vorkosigan saga; Lisbeth Salander from the "Millennium" series; both Harry Potter and Albus Dumbledore - and the list goes on.

Meanwhile, Sueness is not always or inherently annoying. For example, at times my beloved guildies have seemed quite happy to sit back and let Aldrannath be a Senior Sue, making it hard work for me to get him out of the centre of attention. Rites are the only events where I accept and assume that Ald is running the show; the rest of the time I really want him to be a bit peripheral, like Obi-Wan in Star Wars IV, or even more so, like Yoda. That's why the advent of Caranir was such a relief to me, and why I'm always so grateful for the presence of Vaelitha or Theronth. But even in Rites, Aldrannath's leadership only works well if the young Ranger really steps up and becomes the centre of the scene, as Ralane accomplished so beautifully the other day.

Sueness may not always be annoying, but I think it's always harmful to the quality of the story and the RP. If I reflect on the best RP we've had over the years, for example the death of Nathaldir, or the moment of madness in the Ruins of Ahn'Qiraj, it always has these characteristics: that no single person is the centre of attention; that several characters are actively or emotionally involved in what's going on; that the focus moves swiftly from one character to another; and that there is little or no Sueness on show.

[Vaelitha Skysong]

I think I have been able to avoid the pitfalls of Sueness as you describe with Vaelitha. I hope, anyways. :S

I know that I tended to be a total Senior Sue with Matafleur. Just as you say, Ald.. people were happy to sit back and let me grab the reins and direct everything. I tend to be a little impatient, so I was always pushing things ahead, also. Meant Matafleur was usually at the front saying what was what. Doesn't help that she was actually a Commander, either. It's why I liked to seperate the RP group up a little when RPing. Have teams off doing different things so it wasn't all revolving around what Matafleur was saying needed to be done.

It's a difficult one to avoid, though... and certainly not as noticably Suey as say 'Stroppy' or 'Sparkly'.

[Kaleina Moonrise]

*is now excessively paranoid about her sueness*

[Vennidaar Moonshaft]

Hi folks, I am just wondering how actual abilities should be treated. Say as a Druid I am comfortable changing forms and using BotW as a blessing. But say when I am my hunter is it acceptable to use camouflage when we are scouting? That goes for rogues and there stealth. In general what are people's opinions on things like that? Should they be allowed but maybe considered powers from maybe Druidic amulets or should they be avoided as there signs of magic and therefore arcane? Dunno , just looking for thoughts

[Vennidaar Moonshaft]

>>>>tumbleweed>>>

[Kaylaneh]

Hmm. Abilities. Well, on Celegil I mostly use Camouflage as a way of scouting. The lore states that Night Elves pretty much can move unseen through the forests at night. However, things like 'Stealth' on a Rogue are trickier things. Going into Stealth doesn't mean you are invisible, it means you are just hard to see. It depends on the character who is watching you if he/she can see you. Usually, using a bit of common sense gets you a long way.

On the topic of magic abilities I would say that it depends on your character how powerful he/she is. If its a really old Druid with a lot of practice, he/she would be very powerful. A young Druid would make mistakes. I should add though that no character should ever be as powerful as Malfurion Stormrage. He is just silly. And a horrible Sue, along with Tyrande.

Hope that answered some of it? ^^

[Ralane Featherblade]

Sorry, back to the Sue thing. If you were to make this into a Guide, which I think you should! Perhaps post ways of how to avoid being each Sue individually? Like how not to be a Senior Sue and so on.

Personally, I find it hard to not be a Senior Sue. Not because I want to, but because I find that when you're the leader of the guild that the members are always looking for orders.

I did an event last night on The Silver League and a way which I tried to avoid it was getting ALL the members involved. It did also help that it's not just me which sets out the events. My co-leader Isela does as well.

I'd really like this to be made into a guide!

Edit: Decided to elaborate on my post, and change it to one rather then two.

[sveraes]

In reality it is all relative, dependent upon other characters. If everyone is knight-captain, then it is the same as if all were privates.

All characters needs something to make them interesting. Many of the "sues" only become a problem if others wants to have the spotlight. So avoiding sues is more about people communicating out expectations and such.

The senior sue: Many stories must have a leader. Particularly military like organization. Giving orders isn't a bad thing if people expects it, give a task and then "GM" the result of actions.

As a guide there needs to be some points on what is then the right way. Right now it only lists don't.